Editorializing On Polls: Why Citing Polls Does You No Favors

"Oh Ken, you can use facts to prove anything.  33% of all people know that." - Homer Simpson

In my college statistics class, I remember there are two cardinal rules of statistics: (i) you should do all you can to reduce bias and (ii) guard yourself against your own bias.  Basically, what my dear professor was getting at was to avoid extrapolating or editorializing on data.  Chances were that your collection method was already flawed beyond the point of hope, but you might still pull some gem out of a data set by not making things worse.

Lately, I've seen no end to the surplus of both sides of this primary breaking rule two.  Compounded with the sampling error that pollsters inherently have, this is a dangerous combination.  Let's look at some recent polls:

SurveyUSA Poll:

Obama +10 in NC
Obama 50%, Clinton 40%
Sample: 580 LV
MoE: +/- 4.2%

Poll predicts relatively good chance of an Obama victory.  For our purposes, it's safe to say that from this data set.  But wait!  That's just this data set and - while it is following conventional sampling rules - it's not necessarily true; New Hampshire demonstrated that fairly clearly that otherwise good polls can miserably miss the actual result.  Our good friend sampling error has almost everything to do with that.  Is this poll most likely correct?  Yes but not necessarily.  We can doubt what the definition of a "likely voter" is and that participants were truly chosen randomly, but this approaches absurdity real quick.

With this in mind, let us take a look at preliminary GE polls - Obama vs. McCain, Clinton vs. McCain.  Already, we have the traditional doubts.  But furthermore, we have a brand new problem - can polls taken in February be used to predict an outcome in November?  I think the answer to everyone is obviously no.  The intricacies of this election far exceed what a simple "If the general election were held today..." question can encapsulate.  The steps required to go from point A were a candidate is ahead in general election polls in a primary to point B were that candidate is necessarily more electable than a rival require much more information than what one poll can present and is simple extrapolation.

Now, as a final point to this diary, keep in mind that pollsters are in the business of extrapolation and, as our good friend Mr. Zogby demonstrated, any one of them can be biased.  So, in short, I would advise both sides of the primary to state your opinions but don't pretend to have hard proof - it's like the front pagers remind us, "only actual numbers matter."



Display:


Re: Editorializing On Polls: Why Citing Polls Does (2.00 / 1)

Electability is a gut issue for many voters .

Most people don't base their votes on electability and those who do base it on a gut reaction from a combination of several factors.

Even if their are polls showing Obama ahead of Mccain and clinton tied , my intuition tells me Clinton is more electable.

see.

Don't bother yourself.


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 01:45:48 AM EST

Which is my subtle point... (2.00 / 1)

Polls do not even begin to comprehend the intricacies tied up in each election - especially this one.  I'm defeating the notion that an absolute argument can be made for either candidate.


by ejintx on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 01:48:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Which is my subtle point... (none / 0)

Exactly .

Polls factor into the equation for those that base their votes on electability , but it is not the end all and be all because most voters are smart enough  to figure out polls this far out are subject to change under the rigours of a presidential campaign.

So when determining electability other issues come into play that may or may not carry more weight to the voter and they are not absolute in nature.

Just a sort of guide to make an intuitive decision about electability.

I don't think too many people base their votes on electability , likeability seems to be more important considering Obama's rise.


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 01:55:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Which is my subtle point... (none / 0)

You and I may know that, but I've seen people talk about polls like its the Gospel Truth.


by ejintx on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 01:58:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I think many are basing this on poll data (none / 0)

You see Obama supporters all the time citing poll results and higher negatives for Clinton.  People are acting like these numbers are static (and actual measures rather than estimates).  They never stop to think that Obama could hardly not be ahead in polling given the extensive media hype.

I agree with you.  Everybody should choose their vote based on their own evaluations of fitness.  This isn't playing the horses. If you pick your best  candidate and lose, you have a clear conscience.


by lombard on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 02:03:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Editorializing On Polls: Why Citing Polls Does (none / 0)

Polls are one factor but they can be useful as a rough guide to a candidate's prospects. For instance, I haven't heard a lot of people question the idea that Mitt Romney would have been a far weaker GE candidate than John McCain. In the case of Obama vs. Clinton, the difference is less pronounced but it is consistent. Does this tell us everything? Of course not, but it's as useful as any theories people come up with, and I've seen many on this site, about why such and such candidate would be better.


by animated on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 02:06:24 AM EST

Re: Editorializing On Polls: Why Citing Polls Does (none / 0)

I'm fine with people musing on polls and discussing why things might be, but I just don't like arguments that polls are hard proof.  Sure, Obama is doing pretty good right now in those polls and that's interesting, but it doesn't really mean anything at this point.

Same could be said about people who use straw polls and such in support of Clinton.  It's all interesting and fun to watch, but we can't kid ourselves into thinking their actual numbers.


by ejintx on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 11:26:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Editorializing On Polls: Why Citing Polls Does (none / 0)

By the way, the more interesting number to me is not that Obama tends to beat McCain, but that Clinton does so poorly. I really would have thought that after 8 years of Bush and the massive unpopularity of the Iraq War, along the demonstrated strength of Democrats on a generic ticket, that any good Democrat would just wipe the floor with Mr. 100 Years In Iraq. Yes, one poll is not indicative, but the fact that she does so poorly across the board, even in states like Oregon, is kind of worrying.


by animated on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 02:13:46 AM EST

Re: Editorializing On Polls: Why Citing Polls Does (2.00 / 0)

Wow , have you seen the video of Obama basically ripping Deval Patrick's words verbatim.

Its just bizarre.

If the Clinton camp can just get the video out or if the press would focus on it , the Obama camp won't be happy campers.

It just feels like this guy has just been basically conning voters for a year and a half now , but hey I have said it all along , for Obama to be able to use words to basically con voters for lack of a better word about his style of campaigning , his record etc is just an incredible achievement.

If I were the clinton camp I would run an ad with these two clips in Wisconsin tomorrow lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M6x1H08a Fc


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 02:21:52 AM EST

Re: Editorializing On Polls: Why Citing Polls Does (none / 0)

Not that this would stop the Clinton campaign from using them, but according to the NY Times, but apparently Patrick directly gave him the rhetoric / argument with the idea that Obama would use it.

From the NYT:

In a telephone interview on Sunday, Mr. Patrick said that he and Mr. Obama first talked about the attacks from their respective rivals last summer, when Mrs. Clinton was raising questions about Mr. Obama's experience, and that they discussed them again last week.

Both men had anticipated that Mr. Obama's rhetorical strength would provide a point of criticism. Mr. Patrick said he told Mr. Obama that he should respond to the criticism, and he shared language from his campaign with Mr. Obama's speechwriters.

Mr. Patrick said he did not believe Mr. Obama should give him credit.

"Who knows who I am? The point is more important than whose argument it is," said Mr. Patrick, who telephoned The New York Times at the request of the Obama campaign. "It's a transcendent argument."



the third eye does not weep. it knows.
by mijita on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 02:33:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Editorializing On Polls: Why Citing Polls Does (none / 0)

LoL.

That just makes it worse .

He should better look for a better defence.

maybe the clinton camp is not as ruthless as karl Rove but there is a very easy way to use that clip to puncture the ballon of Obama.

Why in the world would you just rip off someone else's lines word for word .

Then come up with an excuse he gave it to me lol.


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 02:38:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Editorializing On Polls: Why Citing Polls Does (none / 0)

Imagine if it was Clinton that was basically plagiarizing someone else's words so blatantly the sky would be falling tomorrow.

No wonder he lost Massachusett in a landslide with all the kennedy , kerry , patrick backing , the folks down there had probably seen enough of the obama type , and they were like hell no we have seen this cast before lol


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 02:29:45 AM EST

Re: Editorializing On Polls: Why Citing Polls Does (none / 0)

David Axelrod ran both campaigns. Deval Patrick used the "yes we can" moniker. The press isn't call Obama out for being an empty suit. Someone SHOULD!


by gomer on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 02:39:27 AM EST

Re: Editorializing On Polls: Why Citing Polls Does (none / 0)

Hey what about Chris Matthews who said he felt a ting in his legs from Obama' speech lol

i wonder how he feels about the clip .

Maybe he would feel a ting with deval patrick.


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 02:42:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Editorializing On Polls: Why Citing Polls Does (none / 0)

Obama used "Yes We Can" in his 2004 race, which was before Patrick's 2006 campaign. Notably, David Axelrod ran all these campaigns, as well as Edwards' 2003/2004 primary campaign, so people shouldn't act so surprised that there are similarities among all of them.

Oh, and Clinton has lifted plenty of language from Obama, including (God bless her) "Fired up and ready to go."


by DPW on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 03:38:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Spoken like a true Hillary supporter (none / 0)

When the polls don't serve your candidate, say "polls don't matter."


by prince georges for obama on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 04:43:45 AM EST

Re: Spoken like a true Hillary supporter (none / 0)

It's sad that you can't see that I'm trying to diffuse both sides of this, but, of course, you can't believe anyone would attempt to be - god forbid - objective in a subject like this.


by ejintx on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 10:49:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Whatever, stop being disingenuous (none / 0)

Just one look at your comment history shows which side you're on and that the last thing this diary would be called is "objective."


by prince georges for obama on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 10:53:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Whatever, stop being disingenuous (none / 0)

I am a Clinton supporter, but I advocate for decent, rational arguments.  If you want to fly into the face of logic then be my guest, because all this diary shows is divide between polls and reality.  Nobody can claim to have hard proof of electability which I've seen diaries on both sides of this primary do.

Are you so entrenched into Obama emotionally that you can't see that this diary is attempting to diffuse both camps?  If I wrote this diary and Clinton was ahead in these polls, you would claim it's the gospel truth.  No matter what the situation  is, the conventions of statistics don't change.  It's people that editorialize on these things that I'm going after and you shouldn't be angry at me unless you do.


by ejintx on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 11:10:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]


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